CamFeed

Thank you. But dozens of projects already approved are expected to escape those requirements. An ABC analysis has found this next generation of centres will be much bigger and more power-hungry than those already operating. Cam Wilson is the ABC's national AI reporter, and he joins me in the studio now. Hi Day, Cam. So take us through what the government is proposing here. Yeah, so a couple of months ago, before the recent headlines about how AI is going to kill us all, we were getting a much more positive message about artificial intelligence from the Prime Minister when he delivered a landmark speech in which he said that Australia would love to get this investment from foreign AI companies into Australia. That's an important technology. But saying, you know, we want to do this on our own terms, talking about you know the social license that these companies need to have to build these data centres here. So kind of like you know, rolling out a red carpet but having a bouncer there, saying you can come in, but you've got to uh meet these uh standards. Those were specifically about things like power and water use. Um, many people have probably heard that there's been community concern over the environmental impact of these data centers. And so the government said we're going to create these new national standards uh that we will have to work with the states with uh and we'll try and legislate by early 2027. Okay, so since that announcement from the Prime Minister, we've heard a little bit more about its implementation. What more do we know now? Yeah, I mean, one of the big challenges with this area is that there is so much appetite at the moment uh to build out the data centres that are the infrastructure that kind of powers the um generative AI boom, you know, products like Jack GPT and Gemini and those kinds of things. Uh, and so while the government is kind of working on these things, um data center approvals continue to happen, construction is is keeping happening. And what the Prime Minister said shortly after that speech is that uh these rules, which are not still expected to be introduced into law for at least six months from now, they will not be retrospective, already um uh built and obviously in construction uh data centres will not have these rules apply. Analysis that we did looking at uh planning documents and company records shows there's at least 25 significant data center projects that have already been approved and are currently being built that may still yet be years away from actually you know coming to fruition that will then escape these rules and therefore not have to apply, uh not have to comply with minimum power and water standards. And so, what does this exemption to these new rules then mean for the communities around these new projects? Yeah, so I mean the Prime Minister was saying, you know, we need this social license, we need to have these rules so that people feel comfortable having them in their communities. Um, you know, one person I spoke to in the story who is upset about a local data center development said, you know, I personally didn't want it either way, but he was saying, at the very least, if it is going to come here, I'd like to see it improve its environmental impact. And that person told me, and this is you know, um, not just limited to them, that they are disappointed that this these new rules that are supposed to set these minimum standards won't come into effect for quite a while. So there is this kind of mismatch between the speed of development and the speed at which these new rules are coming into effect. And so, as you said earlier, the Prime Minister was looking to sort of roll out the red carpet somewhat to investment in these data centers. But is the uncertainty over these rules now affecting investment in Australia's data centers? Yeah, according to analysts I spoke to, they're saying that if it is dampening it, there's so much demand that it's not really stopped the you know huge appetite to build this out. I mean, like these data centers, um I mean, I think Westpac estimated at bringing in about 150 billion dollars in in investment just into the data centers themselves. Um, so there's this enormous amount of money coming in. Australia has this situation where we are, you know, a country that has uh a good energy grid, skilled workforce for Pi of Five Eyes, a number of things that makes us a very attractive destination for major AI companies to set up here. Uh, and they are clearly very keen to do so. And so, you know, an analyst I spoke to mentioned well, like developers are used to dealing with the uncertainty, you know, regulations are always changing. That being said, you know, um, the head of the Data Centres Australia Group said, you know, we think that we are doing enough to already address some of these social licence issues, but we can't um comply with rules that are aren't in effect or won't even kind of established yet, aren't even specified. So the fact that we're not necessarily meeting these doesn't mean that we won't, but it's hard to say that we are if they don't exist yet. Cam Wilson, thank you very much. Thank you. Well, Queensland is racing for its first credit rating downgrade in more than 17 years.

And together they defined the spirit of a nation. Announcement about how Australia was going to seize the opportunity but deal with the challenges and risks of AI. And it could be best summarized as almost a that we're rolling out the red carpet for AI companies to come here. But we've got a bouncer. We're setting some kind of rules around what we want here and why we will welcome them in. And that was specifically around the idea that you know these companies are going to bring a lot of foreign investment. The technology is likely to be you know crucially important to industry of the future. But you know, the government is very aware of the growing uh community sentiment around um uncomfort about some of the data centers that are popping up to uh power this generative AI boom. And so as a result, you know the Prime Minister said uh to have social license to allow these data centers to be built here, um, we've got to set minimum standards at a national level around things like uh power use, energy use, and even where they're situated. Okay, now since that announcement, Kent, we've learned a bit more about its implementation from the Prime Minister. What did he say? Yeah, so I mean, obviously, these um new rules are when he announced them, he said, you know, we're going to uh have to figure them out, we're gonna have to hash some stuff out with the states as well because um you know many of these issues are not just purely federal but also involve the states as well. Um, and so subsequent to that, he said that these rules will not be retrospective, meaning that they won't apply to data centers that already exist, but also ones that are being built uh right now. Um, and so ABC analysis based on looking at um state planning documents uh and also company announcements shows that there are at least 25 new data center projects that will escape these rules, even though many of them will not be built for potentially years. Now, some of these may not end up being built, and and no doubt there'll be more as well approved before these new rules come into place. But what's important about this is that these new data centers are this kind of new generation that are bigger, consume more resources than the ones before it because this generative AI boom, you know, the things powering chat GPT, the kind of AI answers now that you get when you search something in Google, they require a lot more computing power than traditional uh uh computing other methods. And so as a result, you know, um we have to build up this infrastructure, these products have been hugely successful and very, very uh, you know, widely used, but also it means that we've got to build these data centers out, and we know that um there's this kind of rush at the moment to get uh new approvals through to build them out, meaning that these new rules that the government says is important for communities to feel comfortable about them built being built, won't apply to them. Yeah, so then what does this exemption from the new rules mean for these communities that have these new projects already going ahead? Yeah, so I mean, look, um it should be clear that even though these national rules aren't already in effect, there still are state planning rules, and um, you know, many people might compare this to the US, which has um kind of significantly um more data centers already and kind of more ones being built, and they tend to be bigger. Australia is not quite there yet, although these new ones that are being proposed, have been approved, are currently being built, are significantly bigger. They still are subject to state planning rules, but the federal government is like, you know, these federal rules will kind of set more minimum standards that we think are necessary for for communities to feel good about it. And so I spoke to you know, people who are um have data centers being built near them, and they um, you know, including some people who are opposing them, and they said, Well, look, you know, I'm I'm I actually don't want it built here, but if it is going to be built here, I'd like it to have you know certain um minimum standards around things like water use. I want to see them use less water. And so, you know, they were saying that they wished that these federal government rules were already in place, um, but but obviously they are not yet. Um so is the uncertainty over these rules affecting investment in Australia's data centers? Well, I mean, an analyst I spoke to uh suggests that uh there is plenty of demand. We are seeing this enormous um uh interest and appetite to build data centres in Australia. Um, you know, certainly if it is dampening interest at all, uh it hasn't counteracted the the this great um appetite for them. Um, you know, I think Westpac said there's about 150 billion dollars worth of data centre projects in the pipeline. Um, the analyst I spoke to said that like there's a lot of interest. Australia is a very attractive place for this, and that this, you know, if we build them here, there'll be a lot of benefit for the um Australian economy. Um so we're definitely seeing it happen. I think the just really fascinating thing is that these data centres are being built, it is going ahead at such a pace that is outpacing the federal government's attempt to set rules around them. Cam Wilson, thank you very much. Thank you.

Australians were among hundreds of thousands of passengers who were affected. Harrison AI is an Australian company. It was founded in 2018 by two brothers. And what it does is sell tools that are used to help radiologists interpret scans. They've trained these tools on a number of, we don't know the exact number, but according to government documents, fewer than 30 million patient scans that were obtained from Australia's largest radiology clinic, IMED, without patients' knowledge that was being used to train those. They've since become a very valuable company. They're backed by some of Australia's startup scene's biggest names, and also the Australian government tipped in $32 million at the start of last year in a fundraising round that valued them in the kind of mid hundreds of millions in terms of evaluation. So they are one of the success stories of Australia's startups in the last decade or so. So what do we know about these layoffs now? So the company has laid off some Australian staff. I don't know the exact number. Several of them have posted online, but you know, based on discussions with people inside the company, we know it's you know in the mid-double digits is what's supposed. I've of course tried to speak to the company who hasn't responded to a number of requests of comment, uh, other than picking up the phone and saying that they don't uh answer unsolicited calls. Um but the layoffs were done as part of the company's restructure. They're talking about really doubling down on AI inside the company. Now they sell AI tools, but internally they're talking about going to a kind of model where every employee isn't just you know a worker themselves, but thinks of themselves as a uh a player coach or uh a manager of AI agents to do their work. Um, so they have laid off some staff. Uh, a company executive in an interview uh uh that was posted online, says this move has also led to other staff um leaving as well. And around the same time, the company has also launched an affiliated US company that is going from selling these AI tools to directly hiring doctors to use the school uh the tools in a teleradiology service. Okay, so just take us through some of the questions now that are being raised by this new business model. Yeah, so experts I spoke to raise the idea that combining someone who both sells the tool but also hires doctors to care for patients raises a potential conflict of interest because you know ultimately a doctor is supposed to be fundamentally just care about their patient care. That's you know their number one um guiding principle. But if you are hired by someone who is giving you a certain tool, um, you know, there are questions about, for example, could a doctor choose not to use that tool if they're employed by the company, or even at a more granular level, there's a well-known concept in uh AI ethics and and uh healthcare, particularly, where they talk about automation bias. And that's the idea that if a person is using a tool that helps it make decisions for them, sometimes they might defer to the suggested decisions, you know, the automated decisions, even though their better judgment might suggest otherwise, they might just trust the machine when maybe they shouldn't. And experts said, you know, there is of course like a kind of implication about if the people who hire you make the tool, whether that kind of then places pressure on the people, the doctors using the tool to accept what it says. Now, um, the company again didn't respond directly to me, but has said um, you know, it's this US affiliate is actually an independent company, and that the doctors who it hires are independent and can question that judgment. And I should also say that the company, as well, you know, based on what the um experts who I spoke to said that you know this could be an opportunity for a um for these doctors to use a health uh uh tool that could make them more efficient. So, you know, there are definitely upsides to this as well. And the company says, you know, based on it's got advertising material on its website for the doctors that it's trying to hire, saying that we expect that you'll be 30% more efficient using this tool. Um so there's definitely an upside, but there's questions about how do you use that responsibly and and are those kind of checks and balances to make sure that ultimately you're doing everything you can to ultimately care for the patients. Right, Cam Wilson, thanks very much. Thank you.

thank you. Thank you. Let's turn now to other news and internal New South Wales government emails obtained by the ABC reveal that AI company Anthropic was interested in locating up to five gigawatts of AI training capacity in the state. Now, this number represents more than three times the entire capacity of Australia's data industry. It's really quite remarkable. Let's get more on this with national AI reporter Cam Wilson, who joins me uh in the studio. Cam, you you are all over this story. Talk to us about these emails. What what does it show? Yeah, so New South Wales Parliament released a tranche of emails from within New South Wales government about um interactions that the various parts of the government had been having with AI companies and data center companies. Those are actually kind of different because while many of us would know major tech companies who do AI, whether it's OpenAI, Meta, Google, Anthropic, there's also a number of companies that are Australian-owned that actually build the physical infrastructure in Australia. Um, earlier this year, Anthropic's uh US executive uh was making a visit to Australia where they end up signing a um MOU, a memorandum of understanding with the Australian government saying essentially we would love to, you know, put more of our you know, do more work here, put more of our data centers here within the kind of conditions that you would like. It's a kind of very high-level document saying, you know, we're we're into it, we'll start looking into it. But prior to that, um, emails that I got from uh inside the New South Wales government shows that we got a little bit more detail about exactly what they were interested in asking for. Specifically, this number of five gigawatts of uh AI training computer capacity in New South Wales alone. And that's kind of the first time that I think we've heard a figure like that to do with the state that gives us some insight into exactly what they want to do and put in Australia. So break down that number for us. What why is that such a significant amount? Well, uh, there's numbers out today from Data Centres Australia, which is a lobby group representing data centres, predictably, um, saying that currently Australia has 1.6 gigawatts in Australia in total. This ask from Anthropic, which I should say was a very preliminary discussion. It's been some months since then, but suggested they wanted up to five gigawatts. So, you know, my mass isn't great, but it's more than three times that, potentially in one state alone. Now, of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that they would get that much, and perhaps if they got more in New South Wales, they wouldn't get as much elsewhere. But clearly, we can kind of see from that that this company is having discussions with government suggesting that they are really interested potentially in making serious investments in Australia. That would mean some pretty serious infrastructure build-outs. Um, you know, again, over what time frame? We don't know. These companies, you know, are dealing with the here and now, but they're also probably trying to think, you know, years, even a decade in advance. This stuff building out takes a long time. So, you know, I'm sure they're all trying to figure out how to get their ducks in a row. Um, but still, that that number is an enormous amount that kind of lets us understand that we've been hearing that data center companies, AI companies want to come to Australia, they want to build up this capacity, but the amount that they are potentially asking for is such a large amount. It's not just a big thing for them, it's a big thing for Australians, for politicians, for people who are building these things out to be like, let alone do we want it, but can we even give them that much even if we really want to go for it? Yeah, you know, Cam, there's been a lot of discussions about the um uh data centers and of course the kind of resources they would need, uh, what kind of a strain that would be on Australia's own infrastructure and resources as well, but also they are bringing in some investment as well. And this is a hot topic that's going to be discussed in the National Cabinet today. What are you expecting to come out of that? Yeah, so National Camet today was looking at these um what the Albanese government calls its Australian standards. This came out of a speech that the Prime Minister gave about a month ago where he said that we want to get major AI companies to come to Australia to invest here, to you know, employ people here. Um, but also we realize that we don't want a kind of US-style backlash that you're seeing to the data centers being built across that country. And so, you know, they talk about the idea of social license. How do we, you know, um allow or set the parameters for building out this kind of infrastructure in a way that Australians feel like they're not getting taken advantage of, but they're benefiting from. And that uh what his you know recipe for that included a number of things, but the two things that are coming up at National Cabinet today are about energy and water, because um, you know, those are things that the state and uh federal governments have to come to some agreement on. Um we understand that you know some of the states, Queensland, Northern Territory, are not keen on suggestions that uh that um all data centers would have to come with a commensured amount of renewable energy. So you come on in, you say we want this much power, you've then got to source that much renewable energy yourself. Um we don't know what the outcome of that is, but that is like one of the main kind of planks of this idea that the government says if we do this right, we think that we can have it so that Australians feel comfortable and happy that these companies are coming here and setting up their infrastructure. Very interesting. Uh no doubt the conversation and the controversy will continue. Cam Wilson there, AI reporter. Thank you. Thank you.